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Toldot Yeshu - en Judisk skrift om Kristus Jesus?
Postade: 15 Februari 2011 05:27 - —   [ Ignorera ]  
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Jag blev tipsad om denna skrift för några dagar sedan och skulle vilja fråga vad ni tror om denna skrift? Många saker känner jag absolut igen - och andra saker känner jag inte alls igen! Kan detta vara de traditionella Judarnas syn på Kristus som vi läser om i denna text? Dock vill jag säga att texten känns väldigt partisk - men samtidigt så erkänner den en del intressanta saker som jag ändå finner väldigt intressant!

In the year 3671[1] in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah, whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah.

Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing.

At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will.

Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam. Whereupon Yohanan went to Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah and related to him the tragic seduction. Lacking witnesses required for the punishment of Joseph Pandera, and Miriam being with child, Yohanan left for Babylonia.[2]

Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu. On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition.

One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah[3]. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. Miriam admitted it.[4] After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee.

After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene[5] ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraved the letters of God’s Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten.

Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters.[6]

He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, “I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, ‘Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.’” He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, “David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: ‘The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.’”

The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest.

When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah.

The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: “This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone.” Yeshu replied, “The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: ‘And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,’ and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says ‘Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.’”

Queen Helene asked the Sages: “What he says, is it in your Torah?” They replied: “It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in Scripture: ‘And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.’ He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah.”

Yeshu spoke up: “Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead.” A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: “This is a true sign.” She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu’s dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel.

Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him.

The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: “Wage no battle.” He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu, the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She trembled with astonishment.

Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done.

When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: “It is spoken of me, ‘I will ascend into heaven.’” He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.

The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise. He did, and flew toward heaven. Iskarioto attempted to force Yeshu down to earth but neither one of the two could prevail against the other for both had the use of the Ineffable Name. However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of the Ineffable Name escaped from them. Because of this deed of Judah they weep on the eve of the birth of Yeshu.

Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name.

Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch[7]; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover.

[8] Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto[9] apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages.

Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk[10], for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, “His body shall not remain all night upon the tree.” They buried him outside the city.

Förtsättning följer….

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Postade: 15 Februari 2011 05:27 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 1 ]  
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On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.

Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu’s followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, “This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven.” Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.

The disciples went out among the nations—three went to the mountains of Ararat, three to Armenia, three to Rome and three to the kingdoms buy the sea, They deluded the people, but ultimately they were slain.

The erring followers amongst Israel said: “You have slain the Messiah of the Lord.” The Israelites answered: “You have believed in a false prophet.” There was endless strife and discord for thirty years.

The Sages desired to separate from Israel those who continued to claim Yeshu as the Messiah, and they called upon a greatly learned man, Simeon Kepha, for help. Simeon went to Antioch, main city of the Nazarenes and proclaimed toe them: “I am the disciple of Yeshu. He has sent me to show you the way. I will give you a sign as Yeshu has done.”

Simeon, having gained the secret of the Ineffable Name, healed a leper and a lame man by means of it and thus found acceptance as a true disciple. He told them that Yeshu was in heaven, at the right hand of his Father, in fulfillment of Psalm 110:1. He added that Yeshu desired that they separate themselves from the Jews and no longer follow their practices, as Isaiah had said, “Your new moons and your feasts my soul abhorreth.” They were now to observe the first day of the week instead of the seventh, the Resurrection instead of the Passover, the Ascension into Heaven instead of the Feast of Weeks, the finding of the Cross instead of the New Year, the Feast of the Circumcision instead of the Day of Atonement, the New Year instead of Chanukah; they were to be indifferent with regard to circumcision and the dietary laws. Also they were to follow the teaching of turning the right if smitten on the left and the meek acceptance of suffering. All these new ordinances which Simeon Kepha (or Paul, as he was known to the Nazarenes) taught them were really meant to separate these Nazarenes from the people of Israel and to bring the internal strife to an end.

Om så önskas:Källa http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topics/JewishJesus/toledoth.html

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Postade: 15 Februari 2011 06:17 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 2 ]  
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highness - 15 Februari 2011 05:27 -

Jag blev tipsad om denna skrift för några dagar sedan och skulle vilja fråga vad ni tror om denna skrift?

En intressant text som tecknar ännu en (av många olika) intressanta bilder av vem den historiske Jesus kan ha varit och vad som verkligen hände.

Vad tycker du själv om den?

(Dock är väl denna text något som TIDIGAST daterats till någonstans kring 400-talet—alltså 400 år efter de beskrivna händelserna så man kanske inte ska göra för mycket av den.)

Dock vill jag säga att texten känns väldigt partisk - men samtidigt så erkänner den en del intressanta saker som jag ändå finner väldigt intressant!

Jag måste bara få fråga: partisk i förhållande till vilka andra texter om Jesus? smile Jag hoppas innerligt att du inte menar att denna text är partisk medan evangelierna är neutrala.

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Postade: 15 Februari 2011 06:38 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Joeb - 15 Februari 2011 06:17 -
highness - 15 Februari 2011 05:27 -

Jag blev tipsad om denna skrift för några dagar sedan och skulle vilja fråga vad ni tror om denna skrift?

En intressant text som tecknar ännu en (av många olika) intressanta bilder av vem den historiske Jesus kan ha varit och vad som verkligen hände.

Vad tycker du själv om den?

Att den är väldigt intressant - även om den är partiskt mot Jesus som Messias - så erkänner den endel intressanta saker! smile

Joeb - 15 Februari 2011 06:17 -

(Dock är väl denna text något som TIDIGAST daterats till någonstans kring 400-talet—alltså 400 år efter de beskrivna händelserna så man kanske inte ska göra för mycket av den.)

jag vet inte riktigt när den är daterad! raspberry

Joeb - 15 Februari 2011 06:17 -

Jag måste bara få fråga: partisk i förhållande till vilka andra texter om Jesus? smile Jag hoppas innerligt att du inte menar att denna text är partisk medan evangelierna är neutrala.

Menade Partiskt emot Jesus som Messias - man kan inte vara Neutral till Jesus! Antingen är man för eller emot Jesus! Så på svar till din fråga är Nej, jag anser inte att evangelierna är Neutrala. Men de är för Jesus!:)

 

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Postade: 19 Oktober 2011 03:55 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Länken ger svar - This is a derogatory version of the life of Jesus,. . .

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Postade: 11 Mars 2012 12:14 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Highness,

Toledoth Yeshu är en medeltida judisk legendbildning, komplett värdelös som historisk källa. Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971, beskriver den som “medieval pseudo-history of the life of Jesus”. Den judiske forskaren Joseph Klausner gör en ingående analys av aktstycket i sin läsvärda bok “Jesus of Nazareth His Life, Times and Teaching”. (New York, reprint 1989) Han säger att boken “contains no history worth the name”. (s. 51)

Det sägs ibland att Toledoth är äldre, men Klausner hävdar att “it was not composed before the tenth century. Therefore it cannot possibly possess any historical value nor in any way be used as material for the life of Jesus.” (s. 53)

Det finns åtskilliga sinsemellan helt olika och därför motsägande versioner av legendbildningen. Klausner nämner att den påstår att Jesus på ett otillåtet sätt skaffade sig kännedom om “det outtalbara Namnet”, vilket skulle vara anledningen till hans underverk. För att han inte skulle glömma Namnet skall Jesus ha skrivit det på ett läderstycke som han ha sytt in det i sin höft! (s. 49)

Detta är kvalificerat nonsens. Judarna var väl förtrogna med Namnets uttal på Jesu tid eftersom det uttalades i templet av prästerna, särskilt av översteprästen på den stora försoningsdagen. Detta kunde närvarande “vanliga” judar höra. Att Jesus måste gå bedrägligt tillväga för att få kläm på Namnet är därför lindrigt sagt struntprat. Evangelierna säger att det var genom Guds Ande som Jesus utförde sina underverk och hans religiösa motståndare påstod att det skedde med hjälp av Belsebub, alltså djävulen. Toledoth Yeshu speglar en långt senare tids magiska föreställningar som florerade i den judiska kabbalan.

Knappast någon jude tar idag Toledoth Yesu på allvar. Den omhuldades under tider i det flydda då kyrkan förföljde judar. Idag fäster judar rätt stor vikt vid evangelierna som källor till Jesu liv, låt vara med vissa reservationer. Klausner, Vermes och Flusser är aktade namn på icke-kristna judiska forskare som byggt upp skildringar av Jesu liv baserade på evangelierna. Ingen av dem fäster något som helst avseende vid Toledoth Yeshu.

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Postade: 27 Mars 2012 10:44 - —   [ Ignorera ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Eberhard - 11 Mars 2012 12:14 -

Highness,

Toledoth Yeshu är en medeltida judisk legendbildning, komplett värdelös som historisk källa. Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971, beskriver den som “medieval pseudo-history of the life of Jesus”. Den judiske forskaren Joseph Klausner gör en ingående analys av aktstycket i sin läsvärda bok “Jesus of Nazareth His Life, Times and Teaching”. (New York, reprint 1989) Han säger att boken “contains no history worth the name”. (s. 51)

Det sägs ibland att Toledoth är äldre, men Klausner hävdar att “it was not composed before the tenth century. Therefore it cannot possibly possess any historical value nor in any way be used as material for the life of Jesus.” (s. 53)

Det finns åtskilliga sinsemellan helt olika och därför motsägande versioner av legendbildningen. Klausner nämner att den påstår att Jesus på ett otillåtet sätt skaffade sig kännedom om “det outtalbara Namnet”, vilket skulle vara anledningen till hans underverk. För att han inte skulle glömma Namnet skall Jesus ha skrivit det på ett läderstycke som han ha sytt in det i sin höft! (s. 49)

Detta är kvalificerat nonsens. Judarna var väl förtrogna med Namnets uttal på Jesu tid eftersom det uttalades i templet av prästerna, särskilt av översteprästen på den stora försoningsdagen. Detta kunde närvarande “vanliga” judar höra. Att Jesus måste gå bedrägligt tillväga för att få kläm på Namnet är därför lindrigt sagt struntprat. Evangelierna säger att det var genom Guds Ande som Jesus utförde sina underverk och hans religiösa motståndare påstod att det skedde med hjälp av Belsebub, alltså djävulen. Toledoth Yeshu speglar en långt senare tids magiska föreställningar som florerade i den judiska kabbalan.

Knappast någon jude tar idag Toledoth Yesu på allvar. Den omhuldades under tider i det flydda då kyrkan förföljde judar. Idag fäster judar rätt stor vikt vid evangelierna som källor till Jesu liv, låt vara med vissa reservationer. Klausner, Vermes och Flusser är aktade namn på icke-kristna judiska forskare som byggt upp skildringar av Jesu liv baserade på evangelierna. Ingen av dem fäster något som helst avseende vid Toledoth Yeshu.

Frågan blir om det finns speciella skäll att hitta på saker om Jesus i efterhand, vilket det tydligt finns med en sådant viktig historisk gestalt.
Medan alla sentida konstruktioner kan förstås som just det, alltså konstruktioner, medan detta inte gör ursprungliga version mindre trovärdig.
Att det är legendbildning i de gnotika evangeliern förstås när de extrapolera saker som inte evangelierna berör alls, som tidiga barndomen, med fantasier om att han gjorde egoistiska och märkliga saker.
Medan allt påhitt inte går att använda som skäll att inte lita på evangelierna, vilket är slutledningen som man tyver ibland får höra från skeptiker som vill kunna ifågasätta sanningen utifrån till synes “alla”-synvinklar.

 

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/David

———————
“1 Först av allt uppmanar jag till bön och åkallan, förbön och tacksägelse för alla människor, 2 för kungar och alla i ledande ställning, så att vi kan föra ett lugnt och stilla liv på allt sätt gudfruktigt och värdigt.” - 1 Tim 2:1-2
(Vet att detta står i bibeln men det är möjligen en egen parafrisering, men ni förstår budskapet)

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